(WXYZ) — It’s a story the 7 Investigators first broke: a local judge caught on tape, accused of making racist and homophobic comments. Now 7 Investigator Heather Catallo has obtained more of those recordings.
Judge Kathleen Ryan was removed from her docket in late August. The 7 Investigators have learned that investigators from the Judicial Tenure Commission (JTC) have been conducting interviews about the judge’s alleged behavior with employees at the Oakland County probate court.
It's unclear at this point will she be taken off the bench for good, disciplined, or allowed to go back to work.
7 Investigator Heather Catallo first obtained the recordings that Oakland County officials say prompted Judge Kathleen Ryan’s removal from her docket in August.
Related Video: 'I'm a new racist.' Judge removed after court official shares audio recordings
In one recording Ryan allegedly said: “I can honestly say that, ok I’m not systemically racist – I’m a new racist.”
In another recording obtained by the 7 Investigators, she allegedly said: “You f*****g Black c***. I’m so pissed off at this Black Lives Matter, #MeToo, all this bulls***, oh my God – f**k you b***h.”
Ryan is the Oakland County Chief Probate Pro Tem Judge and she’s been on the bench for more than 13 years.
Attorney Edward Hutton is the Oakland County Probate Court Administrator.
Hutton is in charge of running everything that’s not under the judges’ purview inside one of the state’s largest probate courts.
“I've never met anybody that enjoys hurting people and brags about it the way she does — or intimidating people, or scaring people,” Hutton told 7 Investigator Heather Catallo.
He alleges Judge Ryan has been calling him both during work and after-hours for years, and Hutton says during those hours and hours of calls Judge Ryan said highly inappropriate and racist things.
Related Video: Listen: Click the video player to hear the new recordings:
In another recording, Ryan allegedly said this: “…with this whole Black Lives Matter stuff you know they’re like - everyone’s all entitled and s**t… Let’s assume they did get screwed just because of the nature of your color, and the way America is, systemic racism, all that s**t! Fine. But don’t they have an obligation to step up to the plate too? I mean think about it, all they have to do is look at their history, like the whole like baby mommas, and the dads taking off, it’s like, you guys have an obligation too. You want us to treat you equally - you got to f*****g step up and do the same job! You know, you don’t get to be a lazy a**”
“Why did you start recording the calls?” Catallo asked Hutton.
“I just felt like it wasn't going to change,” said Hutton. “Nothing's manipulated and it's conversations that I was a part of. It's something that I anticipate at some point I'll probably have to testify to under oath, and I'm absolutely willing to testify to the authenticity of every single one of them.”
Hutton says he sent Chief Probate Judge Linda Hallmark a formal complaint about Judge Ryan in May. He says very little happened until 3 months later when he sent the recordings of Ryan to the Michigan Supreme Court and to the Oakland County executive.
Judge Hallmark then issued a statement saying she notified the Judicial Tenure Commission (JTC) which decides whether judges should face discipline.
Sources tell the 7 investigators the highly secretive JTC investigative process is underway. But Hutton says he’s always been concerned Judge Ryan’s powerful friends in Oakland County might protect her.
In another recording Ryan allegedly said this: “I hate to say it, knock on wood. I really kind of am untouchable… They can’t touch me… They can’t touch my salary. They can’t touch my job. All they can do is have somebody run against me. Good luck!”
Hutton says Ryan has bragged in the past about knowing people on the Judicial Tenure Commission, although there’s no indication she’s contacted them about this issue.
Related Video: Listen: Click the video player to hear one of the audio recordings:
Hutton says Judge Ryan also previously talked about how the rest of the Oakland County judges would support her in past matters.
Recording: “I’m pretty untouchable. So you guys really want to be d***s… You got 22 judges who are p*****s. Guess what - they’re still going to back me”
This isn’t the first time that Judge Ryan has allegedly made statements about her status as a judge.
In November of 2021, Wixom police arrested Ryan for domestic assault. That charge was later dropped, but police records say Ryan hit her boyfriend in the face and when she was arrested she allegedly mentioned “she was a ‘Judge…” and yelled “obscenities at [the officer], saying, she was going to ‘come after [the officer]…’”
“Judges are at the center of representing the system of justice to the public. It's not only important the way in which they handle their work, but the view that the public has of them,” said Larry Dubin, law professor emeritus at the University of Detroit Mercy School of Law.
Dubin is a legal ethics expert and says Judge Ryan’s statements about race and being untouchable have the potential for serious consequences from the JTC, because even the appearance of misconduct can violate the Code of Judicial Conduct.
“I would say that if a judge believes that he or she is basically untouchable, that they basically can do whatever they want to do and there will not be any consequences for it -- is really mistaken,” said Dubin. “So the Supreme Court is going to be concerned, even if a judge is creating a bad image before the public.”
“She's a judge and she makes decisions from the bench ... that affect individuals’ lives and families’ lives and have a rippling effect throughout our communities, our county, our state. And it just can't be allowed to continue,” said Hutton.
The 7 Investigators did reach out to Judge Ryan’s attorneys. They did not comment on these new recordings but previously told us in a statement: “We respect the authority of the Michigan Supreme Court. However, we look forward to vindicating Judge Ryan in the appropriate forum.”
Meanwhile, the Executive Director of the JTC says their confidentiality rules prevent them from commenting as well.
If you have a story for Heather Catallo please email her at hcatallo@wxyz.com